Chobani & JKR—
Lisa Smith

Lisa is currently the Executive Creative Director at Jones Knowles Ritchie NYC, a packaging and brand design studio, but before this she led the in-house rebrand of Chobani. We talk about how to change a studio’s culture, what it means for design to be purpose-driven and how she’s let fortune guide her career path.

Shelby: How has your day been?

Lisa: It’s been back-to-back

S: No surprise, yeah.

L: It gets to the point where it’s half an hour windows, and then that gets a little aggressive, as you can imagine, so if we go over, don't worry about it. Everybody's getting pretty used to me. It's a little, I think, it's just a symptom of time these times. Isn't it, a little bit? But it's also gearing up for the holidays and everybody is trying to squeeze everything in. So it's like, yeah—

S: Oh wait, we found some money, can you do some stuff??

L: It’s a little bit of that, or we've run out of money, but we still really need x, y, z. So I see that you're doing your master’s, but do you also work at J&J?

S: Yeah, so I used to be in advertising. I was at McCann for three years, and then I was at VML for five months. And that was terrible. So, I've been at J&J now for about two and a half years now. And I just started my master’s this semester. It's a lot to juggle between, you know, the global pandemic, working—

L: And doing a master’s in food studies, or in food science if I remember rightly? So what area of J&J are you in?

S: I'm on the corporate brand team for J&J, so anything that is specifically for the enterprise. I don't touch any of the consumer brands, I don't touch medical devices or pharmaceuticals. It's about the internal employee experience, and how we represent ourselves as a company. So, a lot of guidelines. Right now, we're working on creating standards for motion graphics.

L: Cool. I mean, that was kind of like, I suppose, when I was at Chobani, I was a hybrid of both internal and external. Like, when we would do a campaign, even if it was external facing, there was always a question of, what would that mean internally, too? And how would that roll out, and we would always do an event, or learning sessions or even specific activations right down to kind of even the factories and all the employees. So that was treated with equal respect, which I always thought was really good.

S: Yeah, I mean I feel like that's been really interesting about being in-house, is how much emphasis they put on the employees, and seeing them as another stakeholder or as another, you know, target audience, if you will.

L: Yeah, and that's, I feel like that is a healthy tension working at an agency and maybe even at JKR, in some ways, because we're in three different regions in terms of, we’ve got London, which has existed for 30 years, New York’s been around for eight years, and then you've got Shanghai, who’s less, maybe about four years. So, we're all in various stages of growth. And I think, Sara [Hyman], our CEO who’s incredible, has built JKR in partnership with our CCO over here from nothing to something, but then, like, how much do we do on the internal culture? I'm so surprised to see — and maybe it's a pro and con — how much our CEO does, right down to breakfast club meetings and cultural things. Currently, we don't have the infrastructure of, maybe what a really big company or Chobani would have, in terms of internal communications, and how the HR and the PR team have sort of divided that between both of them.

L: And so, often I feel a bit torn, how much I should be doing internally, versus, really I'm here to make sure all my people are happy, for sure, but in service of the output the work. Because that's why all of us work at JKR, from the creative standpoint. But it's like, do I need to be doing more stuff? Just this morning, I was talking to all my creatives in my group going, how can we stay inspired next year, especially if we’re still working at home. And I feel like that's the thing that's been taken away a little bit through the working from home, is the serendipity of seeing each other, being able to brainstorm more with each other. Because every meeting now feels like it has an agenda and it has to have a beginning, middle and a result at the end. And it's not really left to, like, let's riff on this. And so I think people are a bit, like, starting to feel not quite as inspired as they used to. Because it's busy and it's back-to-back.

S: And you're just, like, in your little home office cave, not seeing people. You've been at JKR for almost two years now, is that right?

L: Yeah, next April. So, over a year and a half now, on my way to two.

S: What drew you to JKR from Chobani — which is one of the most beautiful rebrands I've seen recently — what was the opportunity like for you?

L: Um, I mean, it's interesting. It's a big question because, you know, I worked an agency. I worked at Wolff Olins for over seven years. And then I've worked in-house twice: I've worked in-house at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. So, I had a taste of that when I was more into publishing books, museums, art, that level of design. Then I came to the States, and I think my appetite just got bigger and bigger. When I went to Wolff Olins, I suddenly was working with strategists, and suddenly all my work made sense for the very first time. Like, it was less about arts and culture in that kind of way; it was more about how you impact culture and the consumer and stuff like that.

L: When the opportunity came for Chobani, it was really interesting to me because it was such a purposeful-driven company. And Wolff Olins really wanted to make a difference with the brands that we did in the world — whether it was commercial or cultural — I obviously have worked on a lot of the commercial ones, but I also got to do The Met, and I worked on like hybrids like USA Today, where they were somewhere in between. And I suppose GrubHub is more commercial but still trying to, interestingly, eradicate plastic or different things. So, Chobani was just like a da-dah moment in terms of, they’ve built purpose in from the very beginning. I don't have to like force it in and post-rationalize it into this company.

Obviously, it was a great creative opportunity, too, as they were coming up to their 10th year. How could I make it look like the brand it was always on the inside? That meant really getting close to the founder and the CMO, then really peeling back the onion layers and surfacing what was in their hearts and their minds. Making that and realizing that. 

But after two and a half years — and it happened to me as well at the V&A — I just can't use the same typeface after two and a half years. [laughing]

I mean, I think I've realized that working on rebrands, whether it's evolutions or revolutions, is what I'm good at. So, unless there's something completely different, or new to work on, I find it kind of hard. And I feel like there's other people that love doing that, and I think Chobani still has so many amazing creative opportunities. It's just, it doesn't really suit the variety of what keeps me awake at night and wants to make me wake up in the mornings. Except, I miss it in some ways because I love them and I love what they stand for and all of that, so that there's nothing there.

But I think what drew me to JKR was the variety. Potentially newfound, well, I know a newfound love of working on food and beverage, or any kind of consumer-packaged goods that play a role in people's lives. I didn't come from packaging so I'm not saying I came to JKR because I do packaging. But because of the reach of the brands that they have in consumers lives. I love that I can open up the fridge or open up my cupboard, or I go under the kitchen sink, or I'm in my bathroom cabinet and slightly some JKR brands are literally living in my ecosphere, and probably yours, on a on a daily basis. Obviously, we don't work on every big brand that has consumer goods, but I love that. And don't get me wrong, I still love doing it in other areas, like, whether it's a sports team or whether it's art and culture. Again, all of those things. But there is something to being really in people's daily, everyday lives. I think Chobani taught me a lot about democratizing design in terms of creating something so beautiful in a yogurt aisle that costs 99 cents.

Why does food packaging, for example, have to look so bad? I'm just like, why, when we fill up our supermarket trolleys, half it you buy because somebody told you, maybe that particular brand of olive oil tastes the best or pasta is the best. But most of it looks utterly terrible, even if the food is really good. So, I just think more access to good design. And I felt like JKR had a reach to brands that, rightly so, we're trying to put design at the heart of it and make that better. And then I felt like they're also on the tipping point, that a lot of the brands that JKR works with also have to start leaving a better footprint in the world. 

And there was a particular client who I've been working with, who I probably would have been like, gone, absolutely no way. I do not want to work on this client whatsoever because it’s in the fast-food space, etc. And they’ve put a stake in the ground for changing their food in terms of removing all the artificial ingredients. And I was like, I want to be part of that journey. 

Like that, that's a start. Now it's and that's the start of an amazing roadmap towards sustainability, towards closing the loop around packaging, to how their restaurants are run. It's the start. It's a scratch, but it's being part of a journey with a brand on a life-changing scale, and putting purpose in through everyday acts? That's what gets me excited, and the more brands I can touch who want to do that, that’s what I want to be part of.

S: How much influence do you have as an agency that they’re hiring to actually push them to do that? Because at the beginning of my career, I worked on General Mills, and on Cinnamon Toast Crunch, for example, they were like, Well, it has no artificial colors. So it's healthy. [laughing]

L: [laughing] I obviously don't get to completely influence a Quick-Service Restaurant to the extent that they are changing the food. I think there's a balance. Some clients are waking up to that themselves and then coming to seek a partner that will be best to tell that story or mark a sudden change in the business. And then we're a partner on that.

And then some others, we are very proactive with them around sustainability, materials, and we are driving those conversations.  I guess I work a lot on innovations and ventures work, which is working with strategists on creating new markets. And often a lot of that finding the white space, developing the product lines in those white spaces has led us to already, one: put a purpose in there from the very beginning. And that's not just like are we going to partner with a nonprofit in this way. It's actually really to have a meaningful purpose to — I mean, both are good, I’m not trying to badly speak about the latter. I mean, that's a really good thing still to do, but really, it’s to make sure that if they're making packaging from the very beginning, can they be plant based? If they do have to be in some form of plastics, can their surrounding boxes and packages be completely biodegradable? How can we just start off on the right foot?

L: And I've been able to have much more impact, I think, with people that are starting out, than working with the bigger brands. And I know that even from Chobani. It's like, you look at brands that are maybe 10, 15 years into their cycle, and they own the machinery that they make a product on. So, it's not really easy to go and completely remove that.

Also, I learned a lot about yogurt, specifically. It has to be in a certain material that keeps it cold, the light doesn't affect it, especially if it's got live probiotics in it. But how can you find the most recyclable material? How — when you have to have plastic and if you don't have the capabilities to print direct to the substrate — how can I have a plastic film on it that has the tearaway piece? At Chobani, we all volunteered for a day in a recycling plant. I know enough that, when it's just chucked in the bin and it's got a film on it — think of the Califa Almond Milk, it's got that huge plastic film over the bottle that looks really nice because it's matte — you've got a plastic bottle with a plastic film on it, when it goes to the recycling plant. They can't just throw that in the same plastic thing. I nearly cut my hands off when I get the scissors underneath and try to cut that off because I want the bottle, at the very least, to go in the recycling bin. Often the film isn't recyclable.

So, there's people making huge waves, by printing direct to substrates, printing using much more materials that either close the loop on, or are much more recyclable. But it's really complicated for some businesses that own X amount of machinery that costs — you suddenly get a little bit more business-minded when you see behind the scenes. It's heartbreaking, but it's not like they can just like wipe away all that machinery and start again. So, there's a balance, but every time you start a new product, and you need a new line, and you need new machines, you could start out in the right way. I think brands like, I know like Chobani and other food brands are obviously trying to do that.

S: You know, that reminds me a lot of when I worked in advertising. We had General Mills and my career director was like, well, I mean, you know, colored ink is really bad for the environment. So, we're only going to print black and white. Like, okay, yes, that would do the trick. But there's such a disconnect between consumer perceptions of a thing, versus the actual material reality of it.

L: Oh yes. And then similarly, well, you can get vegetable inks now, anyway. But then does that take to the right material and it's just like I've found myself in many conversations around plastic straws. It's a fascinating subject matter and, of course, they should be eradicated from this earth. I couldn't agree more. But things like milkshakes, and other types of drinks are very complicated with that. There's also a really dramatic price difference, ironically, which breaks my heart. It's an investment to do the right thing. And you’re like, why does that have to be more expensive? Why can’t it be cheaper? Why isn’t plastic more expensive??

S: It also brings up, like, questions of accessibility. Like, plastic straws are important for people who might have a physical disability and they can't—

L: Like children. It often came down to kids drinks, like, how could you — I worked on Gimmes, for example, and we did the mini little milkshake drinks — and it was, do we supply it without a straw, and you just peel it back? And then it's like [gestures to her shirt] good luck to any parent that it's all over. This is the idea, it's meant to be on the go. Nobody had invented a mini straw that was biodegradable, so I think Hamdi [Ulukaya, the founder of Chobani] challenged his followers on Twitter to come up with a straw that could do that because, of course again inventing that and innovating that is another investment in and of itself, probably more than developing the product line in the first place. So, it's a real challenge. To your point, yes, accessibility and needs and costs and then, obviously, the material; there's multiple pieces. But you have to start somewhere. And you definitely have to start with the mindset of changing.

S: Yeah, definitely. Speaking about changing and, slight pivot, you have been in a position to change the culture of an agency, of the studio. What are some material steps that you've taken to make agencies a little bit better about respecting time or even establishing boundaries at the workplace, especially within COVID.

L: Yeah, [laughing] that kind of threw a little wrench into it. I think the thing with COVID is, wherever there was any lasting pain points, it sort of amplified them. I think it's been more of a constant battle since then. It's really difficult because, obviously, what we do as an industry and the outputs of what we make creatively is a crooked path. There isn't a perfect timeline that goes A from B, and you hit every — I mean, I'd love to hit every single deadline with no variable in that. I've never, I mean, I've done things in time, of course, we have to do them. And, more and more, people want things faster and quicker. So, of course, time is of the essence. Maybe it shouldn't be an enemy, but you kind of figure out how to work with it. And I’ve been thinking, if you want stuff fast, you just need more people and more dedication. This just something that has to give and change in order to do it. So, fast never actually bothers me. It's just more dedication and having enough people to do it.

In terms of influencing a culture or joining JKR, which has a really strong culture where they really do care about each other. And I came from another culture like that, Chobani did a fantastic job of making sure. I mean, Hamdi called everybody brothers and sisters, he treated everybody like it was a family. If you want to be part of something, and really wanted to be part of something, you could be really part of the Chobani family. And that is quite an incredible feeling, actually. And I think that's why I think there's only a couple of us on the design team of 50 people that we built who’ve left since I've left. We built something because people came there, and they love it, and they want to be there. I think that's incredible.

At JKR, it's a company that's grown really fast, really quickly, and it has this incredibly caring spirit. But there are breaking points from growing in fits and spurts and going really fast. So, when I joined there was very few creative directors, it was pretty much two running all the projects on the floor. And resourcing was a little bit like Game of Thrones. [laughing] It was like, who's pulling who in order to go there. I think the bit that I brought was more was having an outside perspective, going, Well, there's not enough people leading work, there's not enough design directors underneath them, and JKR have been incredible at investing in people where we felt like we needed people. And probably affected the margins, a little bit because I was like, we need not two creative directors, we're going to have five. We're going to have not two design directors, we're going to have about eight. We've really bolstered up where we can, in terms of that. And then it's trying to keep the right balance of designers and compensate like — I don't want to be top heavy. I really want to grow a culture where people are growing up through the business. The biggest success I see with JKR is when we can promote people into more senior roles versus bringing outsiders in. I filled the holes, and now we're trying to create a model where it's more about upward growth.

And on the side, we're working on creating an internship program that will actually be more of a mentorship program starting next summer. That's a huge push on thinking much more heavily about mentorship and growth and giving opportunities to people that might not have had these opportunities before. We're starting with community colleges instead of top tier colleges, and then I hope we can, over time, stretch that program to reach the people that might have interest in creative industries but not even know what it’s like to work in them. And how can we have long-running relationships with those people, versus thinking that that's our hiring pipeline? And in fact, we've got to train our mentors to be mentors. So, we're really thinking and spending a lot of time.

I think, sorry that's such a long answer to your question, but I mean, it's a work in progress, for sure. What I've done is now divided teams; the CDs run different teams with a healthy mix of every single level, and then we they have a pool of clients from global to US to smaller clients, so that they have a variety of work within a team. So that there is, again, heavy mentorship happening within a group of people in a more focused way instead of it being more spread out. Now I know some people would still like to work with other CDs, or other DDs, and I think for now for this, like I said, a year and a half in, this has been really the time where we've been trying to actually put our arms around each one of those teams and let them cultivate themselves before I start cross mixing them.

And, of course, we have moved people if they're not happy, or it’s not jelling quite right. Maybe they'll do really well in another hub with a different pool of clients and with a different creative lead. That has helped, but what doesn't help is when somebody leaves, and we haven't filled them in COVID because we've been very conservative about hiring for now. But they really still need that person. So that's caused the pain for us this year. We were still on a growth trajectory; we actually had a very large number of open roles going into COVID. And the immediate thing we did was to protect the staff we have. We can't make any of these hires. But the problem is that the business still needed those hires, even though it was showing a slight downward turn. The people still wanted it, faster, quicker or maybe even the circumstances of working at home offset having more work. It was just a little bit different to try and do it in these circumstances. And I would say that that's been our ongoing pain.

And then when you think about working too long hours, meetings finishing on time, respecting boundaries, we've had moments where we've had to stop and start. Like, we'll just work from home, all of a sudden that happened, and then we realized people were burning out, or there's not even a moment to go from a Zoom to have a bathroom break or make a cup of tea or any of those things. We put in a mandatory lunch hour; I'm not going to say that that stays perfect, I know it doesn't for me. But I do think we try to respect that for everyone. And we just have to continually remind ourselves on a monthly basis: Please do not book over this time so that people have it. In terms of doing longer hours, that's again been what we were doing before, but I don't know if that was right before, either. That ebbs and flows. The CDs really do try and protect their team members, almost to their own detriment. I feel like they're the ones staying up til the really late hours, but again, we're very cognizant of that. And I just want to make sure we have enough people to do the work, so that we could do the work in sensible hours. And I know we can do that because I did it at Chobani.

There were moments, of course, when we went hells to bells, like weeks leading up to the launch. We did, you know, a rebrand of Chobani in eight months. I hired that full team in that eight months alongside Kwame and Leland; we hired a team as well as did rebrand as well as 250 SKUs of yogurt. And it was it was incredibly intense at moments, but the majority of the time we did try and run it during normal working hours. You’ve just got to keep reminding yourself that. And then it all becomes about negotiating with clients: No, this is when we can deliver. This is no new news to any agency, we’re a yes culture. We don't want to say no to a client, because we the love the client. We love the work we do that for that client. We want to make that client happy, and that client makes you feel like they need whatever they need yesterday.

L: And you're almost scared that they might give it to someone else, and I was like, but surely, we have better relationships with our clients? And I know we do. We've definitely learned that, even through moving teams around that didn't used to work on certain brands. Initially we were very apprehensive and scared of creating the hubs and the teams because this person's worked on Budweiser for blah blah blah, or they're not going to be on it tomorrow. And we talked to the client; the clients can handle more change and more “no” than I think we give them credit for sometimes. I mean, I think there's a lot more empathy with clients now. A lot of them are seeing our bedrooms, our homes. We're seeing them with kids crawling over their heads, and I think there is more empathy. I definitely struggle with a lot of designers who may be a working far away from home or live in apartment shares with friends, that's tough. But a lot of people have also moved out of New York, or have even gone home, or they've moved to LA, or we've had people go back to Brazil. As long as we pretty much do working hours on New York time, I have no problem where anyone lives.

I mean, I would say, for people’s sanity, they should try to live somewhere on the hours that can meet. I think a few people have suffered. Like if you've gone to the UK; it's put me off on going back to the UK. I don't think I could sustain the hours, having a five-hour time difference. But I love that people now could live wherever they are. And I love that when we go back, even if I really want to go back to an office, if other people want to live in LA or wherever they live, I'm very happy to make that work. We’ve proven that we can do it. It'll get more interesting when it's a bit of physical and digital because I'm interviewing candidates who live wherever in the States. I think you still have to turn up to that Zoom, and if you can't join at that time, that's not anyone else’s fault. You have to partake whether your physical or digital. But I think we'll figure it out. If we can figure this out, we can figure out a hybrid model.

S: Yeah, we have so much time to figure out a hybrid model, like, COVID just kind of hit, and we had to do it. But to your point about working normal eight-hour days, the biggest lesson I've learned since going in-house is that deadlines are made up. The timing isn't actually that real? And if you need more time to make it right, then take more time to make it right. Like, please don't work 15-hour days, it’s not worth it.

L: Yeah, I need you to come and say that to all of our [laughing] team. We're all human, aren’t we? Whether we’re the client or whether we’re the creatives working for the client. It's just a conversation, and I don't know why we need to be so afraid of saying it, unless there is a hard deadline that we've all set and that we're all working towards, which there are some, of course. But the rest? I think, yes, it's a conversation

S: Speaking of, I know that we’re over our time. And I'm sure you've got things to do. Are you okay?

L: I could do another five minutes and then I might have to pop. But if there's anything else?

S: Well, I guess, one more question I have is, how do you feel looking back on your career? And what does growth look like for you? I listened to your Business of Design / Design of Business interview, and you mentioned that you want to be sure that whatever you do next is fostering growth. But you're really high up your career, and you’ve had a really prolific life so far. So I’m curious what that might look like for you.

L: You know, I think I had a colleague or someone at JKR who said, Well, you didn’t quite do what you said you were going to do in that interview. And I think it's interesting because a few people asked me about my career path, and in some ways, I curated it.

But I curated it through serendipity because things have come into my path that, I've been very fortunate to have come into my path. People thought I was crazy when I told them about Chobani when I had been the head of design at Wolff Olins for nearly seven years. And they were like, you’re gonna work at a yogurt company?? Even my mom was like, what, she doesn't really understand still what I do today. But she was just like, whoa. And I was like, you wait and see.

A lot of other people did, too. Because, I suppose beyond having a lot of friends who've worked at Apple or Google, I think that what happened with Spotify and Chobani was probably the first more public rebrands. Like, you can see the investment going into building design and creativity at the heart of the business. Optically you could see what was happening, and obviously, a lot of people have then gone on to try and replicate that. Is that sustainable? All of those things, we probably don’t know all those answers, yet.

L: I don't know. I mean at JKR, it reminds me of my years at Wolff Olins, and I loved when I worked there, too. I think it's why I love working at JKR, because I just I love the variety of the different challenges. I love learning about different people's businesses. I can't remember too much about when I worked on Mayo Clinic back in the days at Wolff Olins. But all I remember I learned so much about the American healthcare system, as I did when I worked on ZocDoc. To working on a QSR restaurant where you live and breathe that brand, but it's, like, the day that I pivot to the next one, I forget all the knowledge I picked up. And it’s like shedding a skin, isn't it? Each time you move on. I feel very like mentally stimulated by being brought different challenges and learning about different businesses and different industries and things like that. It continues to be a red thread that regardless, for however many years I stay at JKR or that I go on to do if I were ever to leave would be that the work that I have to do has to have an impact on the world in some way. I would love it to get more and more of a positive impact, and I want to continue that journey.

To be honest, I think in that Design of Business interview, I think I actually implied that I would be working at a nonprofit. [laughing] And I think that would be an amazing thing, working at a UNICEF. But then… I can have so much more impact working with some of these big corporate brands on the impact they can then have. They're the ones that damage the Earth, why can’t I help course correct it? That's why I feel like I'm just in a slightly more powerful position to be able to do that.

Somebody else might laugh at me and go, you’re just the graphic designer, what can you do? But it's my way of doing something. And I love it, and I fight to do that in my own small way.

Just thinking about Greta [Thunberg] because I watched that documentary the other day, but it's incredible what one single person can do in their own field. And if you found more and more people in all different industries fighting for what's right, I mean, I look at the work that some ad agencies have probably done on things like Nike. It's incredible what they've done and what they stand for and what brands can do. So, I think they've shown the power of it. The P&G’s of this world do that, too. I was very lucky to work with Kwame, Tyler, Hamdi when I was at Chobani, who was part of the Saturday Morning Group who did the look for P&G. And I think about all the other amazing mother-daughter, mother-son, father-son pieces that they've done; that work moves me to tears. That's when I know things are incredible. I just want to do work that gets your heart racing, that you have some level of emotion for. And for now, I can do that, definitely, at JKR. There's lots of lots of opportunity. It’s only just started in some ways.

Which is is a good thing and a scary thing. I'm literally two years in, but it's such a different challenge than I've experienced before. I grew up at Wolff Olins. And I got to create Chobani from scratch. And now I’ve inherited a very large team in a company that has huge growth trajectories. It's a completely different challenge. I feel like I'm learning all over again. And when I'm learning, that's when I'm excited and interested. When I feel like I've cracked something, that's normally when I feel like I should move on.

S: No, that totally makes sense. I feel similarly about things. I mean, for me it's like being back in school, because I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but we'll figure it out, somehow. It’ll fall together in some way.

L: No matter what happened, I never, interestingly, hunted for what I wanted to do beyond college and getting my first job. I remember when I went to my first job, which was an incredible little design company in London, and I had been there for maybe five years. And a friend of mine said they saw an ad in The Guardian newspaper for a senior creative to work at the V&A. And they were like, this would be amazing for you. I was like, Yeah, but I’ll never get it, thousands of people apply to a newspaper ad. And I was right. Thousands of people did apply to that, but I got that job. That's when my mom said, Oh, I'm so proud of you. And I forget stuff like that, I forget where I got that job. And how many other people would have liked it, and then the impact that you had to have.

The rest has come just by being fortunate. I was working at the V&A, and somebody told me about this small Scottish design company in New York who was looking for designers. I have an American passport, and I had said before, maybe I'd like to work in New York. I was 29, single, didn't know what I wanted to do next. So, I applied for that job and went to New York. And then 13 years later, I'm here. You have to still have drive to apply, to put yourself out there, all of those things. But it's just keeping your ears open to, what, maybe that would be cool.

S: And I also feel like it's not having tunnel vision, like, not thinking I have to work at Nike, and then just sort of, you know, oh my god, I'm not seeing all the other possibilities that are out there.

L: I know one thing I never wanted to do — and the irony is, I have such amazing friends who all work there — was work at Apple. And I had an interview at the ad division of TBWA, The Media Arts Lab, and they were looking for a head of design to partner with all their ad creatives to put design and ad together, and that's what I'm always brought in to do, that kind of like weird middle ground. And that's the first time I've ever turn down a job. That was the biggest job I've ever been offered, but it would have been so much traveling, and moving to LA. And for the first time, I was like, I don't want to do that.

I want to be in New York. I want to be with my dog, and it's weird how things change as well. Where you always thought you were that hungry, or you just wanted more money and you find yourself not chasing those things. It was an interesting reflection point for me, but I always knew I never wanted to work for Apple. I knew I didn't want to just follow an aesthetic that's already so set. I didn't know what I would bring to the table. But when you work at Google, I feel like, yeah, they might do beautiful commercials that feel a little bit different. But pretty much everything exactly it just looks like what Google should look like.

S: Mmhm, yeah. It's like fitting yourself into a mold instead of being able to create them. Like, at J&J I can see the impact that I'm making on the team instead of just executing what’s already been established.

L: I think my brain, when I was talking about P&G, I was thinking about J&J. I don't know where that came from. Sorry, I just—

S: No, no, it's totally fine. I mean, they're very similar

L: There must be crossover for those types of things, but yeah, sorry

S: No, no, no, there’s no need to apologize. Totally fine.

Okay, can I ask one more question? You mentioned the Greta documentary. What is a food or a drink or, you know, something that you would pair with watching a documentary?

L: I eat curry literally three times a week. I always made homemade curries and I am, just, it has nothing to do with Greta whatsoever. But yeah, my winter warmth comfort food is definitely curry with a nice glass of red wine.

It’s been really lovely to speak to you.